Soundcheck difficulties

Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Probably this is a tipical question from a newbie, anyway...
The problem is the difference between the soundchecksetup and then playing live with the place full of people. It happens that the settings sounded good in the soundcheck, fail me during the live. Some people told me about the low presence of the bass or something like " i cannot hear the bass playing".
What the... there is this unbelievable difference between an empty hall and the same filled with people?
In addition, on the stage there's an optimal position for the amp and the speaker? Behind you, quite far, near the drums?
Thanx for every advice you can give
 
If the soundcheck sounded good,I can't see any reason why you shouldn't sound good during the gig unless the sound guy screwed with the mixer...it's happened to me.
 
Honestly i can't tell. The stage was quite small and i was forced to play too near to my speaker to notice that, i'm just questioning about what people said. Playing in a small place perhaps?
 
a good question it is.. yes, bass can be problematic to setup if the room is empty.. a smart thing to do would be somehow evaluating in which frequencies is it absent or not present (is it boomy, thin, hollow, just plain low in volume) and then keep that in mind during the sound check. a good idea would be to get a knowledgeable friend to listen to the bass or, even better, get him to stand in for you during one song so you can walk around the room and check out the sound.
now for the amp position, it depends if you are using it as a monitor (with bass going mostly through the PA) or using it as your main and only source of sound. if the first case, the best positioning would be somewhere where you and drummer (primarily you two) can hear it loud and clear. consider (if possible) tilting the speaker and testing at what distance the sound is projected best. for the second case.. I don't know.. a good idea would be having it next to the drums but in my experience (limited with that setup) the bass will sound uneven across the room and mostly weak.
hope I helped, good luck :)
 
Well, your answer make me think of a couple of things about the guy helped the soundcheck.
As for now, the speaker is the main source and we have only monitors for the singer (actually we play in small places), and in this case was on the right of the drums, near the wall.
After the gig, the drummer said he couldn't hear me properly, so i don't know is something changed on the amp head.
Anyway i think i'll follow your advice for a trusted backup friend off the stage, to make changes on the fly next time.
 
Hi Bass Uncle,

Yes, the sound changes from the sound check to the show... There are many factors, including weather and humidity for outdoors.

Things to consider:

You are not in front to hear your bass, so you do not know how the sound was.
Your friends are not specialists, and 99% are wrong when talking about how loud a bass should be. Believe me :-) On the other hand, the sound guy knows better, so trusting the sound guy is a better Idea anyway.

What you can do is:

Be sure you send a very clean sound to the front guy. Many times the bass needs rather a low cut, not a low boost. If you don't know EXACTLY what sound you need in order to match the kick drum, the accoustics, etc, you better send to the front pre EQ, and leave the guy make the sound for you.

In small places, keep the backline as low as possible, and rely more on the FOH. Even if you hear yourself loud on the stage, the sound of your bass will not be that good 4 meters away. The FOH handles is much better.

But if the bass is loud on stage, the FOH guy will cut you on the FOH. So better shut your bacline, and use in ears, or place yourself in a place you hear the FOH well...

I hope it helps.
 
hey BassUncle...dunno bout your exact situation of course, but in my former bandz da drummerz often used da 'not hearing da bass (or even da whole band !) properly' as an imho sumwhat 'cheap' excuze to explain their own mistakez and flawz...and ya must accept that most people who come to see a band play live are usually not that interested in da bass (soundz) as we, da bass brotherz, are...after da gig everybody's alwayz talking bout da singer'z beautiful voice, da geetardist'z awesum solos and sumtimez da drummer... but actually almost nevah bout da most important part of da band: da bass...Unless of course, ya played a 15 minute during Mark King slap solo while dancing naked across da dancefloor...:d ..so I wouldn't attach too much importance to their opinionz too if I were you, cause imho they only make ya become (unnecessarily) insecure bout your bass playing (soundz)...8:

ow...and of course I fully agree with da advicez (above) from our fellow forum memberzzzz...:lol:
 
The audience in a room WILL change the acoustics in the room, effectively affecting frequencies.
 
Hey guys,

I trained in live sound and actually ran a small PA/Sound company back in the UK before I came to Warwick.

The sound from your bass will change when the room is full of people, in my experience this is something most musicians learn as they go along and actually natually begin to adapt their sound during sound check to what they know it will sound like full of people.

Also a good sound engineer should have this ability as well and make sure they are ready for the change in sounds.

If you have a long cable or wireless system for one of your instruments I would always advise a member of the band standing in front of the band in the middle of the room while soundchecking, EQ may need adapting later but you will get a much clearer idea of levels and how your mix sounds.

As for amplifier location thats a hard question, some stages are so tiny its hard to get a good distance from the amp. Try to have it behind you and in a position where it won't simply reverberate the drums.

Practice is the key as for anything to do with live gigs, after a while you will be able to look at a room and balance your EQ to suit it best. The one and only reason I have a GEB7 on my pedal board is to EQ my bass to the room.
 
It's so nice to be in the warwick family :D
Ok, i'll let the other in the band read your suggestion, and try everything in the next studio sessions.
Thans a lot to everyone!
 
As for amplifier location thats a hard question, some stages are so tiny its hard to get a good distance from the amp. Try to have it behind you and in a position where it won't simply reverberate the drums.

How do you mean reverberate the drums?
 
What I have found is with certain amps and basses (in fact certain frequencies all together) the bass can make the drums hardware and skins reverberate.

Obviously there will always be a level of spill, its nigh on impossible on a small stage not to make the snare wire rattle when playing loud.

The problem is worse with lower quality drum kits especially with cheaper hardware, the high pitched buzzing whine caused by hardware metal rattling at high speed can often cause problems especially if the drums are mic'd up.

Basically put the amp in a position where it is not too close to the drummer and you will cut down these problems.

Hope that helps.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This is something I have been thinking about writing a series of articles about because it never ceases to amaze me how ignorant the average musician really is about live sound reinforcement. But when you think about it, it really is understandable because the subject can become quite complicated with so many random variables that are completely out of our control that even for professional engineers with all the tools at their disposal, it still can be a giant guessing game where they just have to make their best, most educated guess and go from there.

After gaining some basic education, experience will be your greatest asset in helping to achieve the best setup possible within the varies elements you have to work with, so for now I would really stress, pay attention to all the vaiables and how the sound is effected by them and what works and what didn't work in trying to deal with them. You might even consider keeping yourself a notebook to note the little things as you notice them. One thing that is really handy to note is particularly difficult rooms and what was done to compensate for them. Down the road that information could become invaluable to you.

I watched an interview with the FOH (front of house, the main PA mixer) engineer for Rush, and he was saying that even the most seemingly simple thing has an inpact on the sound. For example, is the show in the winter or summer; and not for the temp or humidity issues you would think of at first, but because of the people. During the winter, expecially in colder climates, people tend to wear more long sleeve shirts and sweaters as oppossed to winter where they are wearing more short sleeve shirts and more skin revealing outfits. So what, you may be thinking. Skin is actually fairly reflective as compared to cloth which is sound absorbant so something that simple can have a major effect on the sound when your dealing with large crowds. The point is, that there are so many little varibles that effect your sound that you have to be ready to adapt on the fly and do the best with what you got to work with. But there is no substitue for a set of educated ears FoH.

Something else you really have to consider, is the soundcheck is not ment to be the perfect sound that you will be running all night. It would be nice if it were and occassionaly you may get lucky and all the planets are aligned in the perfect order and the gods of music are smiling down on you, but generally, as people start to fill the event and as the heat of their bodies start to warm things up and the shadow of the moon follows two young lovers in the parking lot, your sound will need a little tweaking. Warm bodies are expecially hard on the lower frequencies, meaning us bass players because they absorb the lower frequencies a lot more than they do the high freqs and you must be ready to compensate for that. As the musician on the stage you are in the absolute worse position to be the one to do that, so again, that is why an educated set of ears FoH is so essential.

The true purpose of a sound check is to one, make sure all your gear is working and ready to go, two, get your stage sound set and finally, to give you the best possible sound to start the night with. Avoid the temptation to try and make it sound perfect for the empty room you are in, but use your best educated guess as to what it will be like when you will actually be playing at the start of the night. So give some thought to how many people will likely be in the house when you start and make some allowances for them and for any other potential sound effecting varibles you can forsee with any amount of certainity. But as I said, be prepared to adapt on the fly. I would also advise doing what a lot of bands do, end your soundcheck with the song you are going to start your night off with; I think the benefit of this should be fairly easy to see.

In my opinion, even in small club situations, the best way to go is having everything run through the PA and not use your stage amps to be the main source of sound for the house. You should keep your stage sound and your FoH sound seperate. This means playing at lower levels on stage which in reality gives you and your sound guys far more control over your sound. This also gives you the advantage that once your stage sound is set at soundcheck, it should require very little tweaking throughout the night to maintain it. Then all your sound adjustments will be made from the main PA mixer whether you have an actual engineer FoH or not. In contrast, when using your stage amps as the main source of sound for the FoH what happens is ... Everything is sounding ok, but then the place starts filling up and the bass starts to get lost, so the bass player turns up his amp to be heard. But now he is so loud on stage the guitar play can't hear himself on stage, so he turns himself up and now not only is the bass not being heard, they can't hear the vocals anymore, and thus the never ending battle of volume is underway that eventually everything is so loud the vocals can't get anylouder withour howling from feedback and everyone in the crowds ears are so overloaded from how loud everything is that it all statrs to become noise to them no matter what you do. And this my friends is a horrible place to find yourself, because it is almost impossible to recover from this, because once you blow out your crowds ears, even cutting everything back to the way you started the night, the damage has been done and they won't be hearing you correctly anymore. Bottom line, get your stage sound setup correctly and use the PA to make any necessary FoH changes.
 
In my opinion, even in small club situations, the best way to go is having everything run through the PA and not use your stage amps to be the main source of sound for the house. You should keep your stage sound and your FoH sound seperate. This means playing at lower levels on stage which in reality gives you and your sound guys far more control over your sound.

+1 Your best bet is to give the sound guy some control over your sound and how it fits with the rest of the band. Unless you are super experienced and know what to do with compensating for the million unknown variables Randy mentioned. I used to play gigs with really loud volumes on stage, the sound guy would cut me off from the PA completely, then he would be unable to put things together and balance our sound. I have recently started thinking about on stage equipment more as monitors and not as main sound sources, the sound guy is happier now, and I can only assume the overall sound of the band is better.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top