Seeking Advice - DAW

BassPlyr Randy

BassPlyr Randy

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If this has been previously discussed, I am sorry. I have beed searching the forum and just not finding direct answers to my questions so I thought I'd start a thread.

Anyway... I've been wanting to put together a little home studio to do a little recording and have been slowly trying to piece things together for a while. I plan on using my computer as a DAW. To say I am doing this on a slim budget is an understatement. Not only is this being done on a shoe string, the shoe string is broken and I have to make due as best as possible. However, I am hoping to do this in a manner that will allow for growth over time. Dont want to box myself in.

Current gear & software:
PC - Intell P4 2.8gb w/ 2gb ram, 1.6tb storage & Turtle Beach Riviera sound card


Alesis SR-16 drum machine
No Keyboards Yet... Just my basses and guitars and Shure SM 57 mics
Sonar Producer 7
Ableton Live Lite 7 (bundled w/ the UX2)
Pod Farm, Reason Adapted, Riff Works and all the rest that cam bundled w/ the UX2)

Past bad experience...
Tried to run from the Peavey mixer to my computer (at time was only 512mb ram and soundblaster live card) Sonar has major issues with soundblaster and even going through the onboard (realtec) audio was way to buggy. Ram a major problem at this time.

Finally to the point
First question, setup.. Would it be better to use the UX2 running via usb as my audio interface or should I come directly out of my Peavey Mixer to the line in of my sound card or 3rd option from mixer to UX2 to PC via usb? My thinking is that the usb is a much faster interface so should really reduce any possible latency issues. Since I haven't even tried it yet, I dont know which would have the better preamps, the ux2 or the mixer. For live sound, I haven't been overly impressed with the preamps on the mixer.

Next Question, what software do you think I should use? I know Sonar is a full fledged DAW, but from my little experience with it, it is very complicated, although I really dont mind the learning curve if the final results are worth the hassle. Ableton Live Lite... No experience, I opened it up and looked at it, but thats it so far. And another option I have been thinking of is Audacity. Very little experience with it, but it looks pretty simple and straight forward. Just not sure if it will be able to keep up with all I want to do as I grow my home studio. No point in spending alot of time with one system only to start over a few months down the road.

I have more questions that I am sure I will be asking soon enough, and I know alot of what I am currently concerned about will require alot of just testing things to see what works the best for me. But I am seriously hoping that for now I can count on your experience to help me get started on the right track so I dont go too far down the wrong path without realizing it.

Thanks to those you you that actually read this, and thanks in advance for any suggestions or comments you may have.
 
Hi Randy,

Ok - quick question...what do you intend to record and how many instruments at a go?

If the answer is "mostly guitar and bass", you'll be fine using the UX2 as a USB interface. As long as you don't go using too many chunky plugins, you'll be fine with the RAM you've got.

Personally, I'd put the mixer and Turtle Beach to one side...you won't need them.

If you've got Sonar 7 PE, that's a great package and arguably better than Protools - it comes bundled with a load of useful plugins which will probably be of interest later down the line. Suggest you buy this book: [ame=https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sonar-7-Power-Comprehensive-Guide/dp/1598634429/ref=pd_sim_b_2]Sonar 7 Power!: The Comprehensive Guide: Amazon.co.uk: Scott Garrigus: Books[/ame] it's a really easy way to learn how to use Sonar.

I cut my teeth on Sonar 7 PE and love it...it's really easy to use. Whichever software package you use, there's a learning curve - so it kind of makes no odds which that is. There's also a very helpful Sonar forum with loads of tips and advice.

The hardest part about any DAW is setting the bloody thing up and getting a low latency level...the rest is fun.

Here are 3 songs that were done completely in Sonar TheWhiteRabbit bei MySpace Music - Kostenlos MP3s anhören, Bilder & Musikvideos ansehen - "I Would Give Anything" was the first thing I'd ever recorded using a DAW (also the first song I'd ever written)...that song was my learning curve!

Oh, and none of those songs have been properly mixed...just a quick bit of eq and very rough levels.

HTH
 
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i have UX2 and it is much better suited than turtlebeach card for what you'd like to do. latency is very very low, sample rate is good. software bundled is targeted for vox and guitar/bass. it has DSPs onboard and bundled plugins are processed w/out CPU.

so - plug it to USB port and plug your instruments directly to UX2.

as for soft - know sheet about sonar. at first had a resistance towards ableton due it's 'childish' user interface, but it turned out to be quite fine. you get support, upgrades, manuals..... it has some limitations - like you can not record more than two channels at the same time, but UX2 does not support more than two, anyway. ;)

hope i was of any help.
 
wow, thanks guys, that was exactly the type of replys I was hoping for, much appreciated.

@Gman... At least initially, it will be simple bass/guitar/keys stuff, no more than 2 channels at a time. Thats why I figured the UX2 would be ok, at least initially. I wanted the M-Audio Delta 1010, but at $600 its pretty much breaks the bank and I just don't need that right now.


So it looks like I am just gonna go with Sonar, which was my first instinct all along. I mean I spent the money on the software I might as well use it. I just got intimidated, but will diffently look into buying the book you reccomended, thanks.
 
No problem sir! Glad to be of assistance!

My best purchase so far (aside from the Sonar book): EZ Drummer - great sounds, amazingly simple and useful midi files to boot...soooo simple, even my wife can use it!

Oh yeah, if you get the book and still have questions, the author has a forum where you can ask questions: Scott R. Garrigus' DigiFreq - Forums
 
Like everyone mentioned use the UX2 line 6 pod instead of your riviera card. After checking it out i would not go near it for sound recording.

I have the most experience using ableton live and i would say the interface is simple, not childish. And it has a tonne of extremely useful features and it is extremely flexible and i found it very straight forward. - both recording and for live work/

I honestly would give ableton live a go and sonar as well. Pick the one you prefer to use, and go with it. No matter what people say about the software imo it really depends what works for you.

Audacity is great for simple recordings - i'd definately look into it.

I would also look into reaper: REAPER | Audio Production Without Limits its free and i am really liking it currently.

Both audacity and Reaper are really worthwhile bits of software to have.

Ok software aside. Now lets get to the issue of hardware.

Now, you PC will be fine but you are going to really have to tweak it to get a good performance out of it. I am assuming you are using XP and i would like to point you towards it cost £2 i think or something for membership but its the best £2 i spent. It shows you how to do everything.

Now latency is likely going to be the bane of you system and i highly doubt you will be getting anything remotely close to usable low latency for monitoring. Not to worry though!

You will need to use hardware monitoring, Using the UX2 though this won't be an issue, as checking the specs it has this feature built in, and the DSP reduces the overhead on the CPU as well (all good news!).

I don't know how much experience you have with recording, but i would look online first for information before getting a book. There are loads of tutorials for almost everything out there if you have the time to find them.
 
Experience recording... As a musician, quite a bit. But on the other side of the desk, very little, and all of it years ago on old 4 tracks. I used to own an old fostex 4 track and I've used a Tascam PortaStudio. Bouncing tracks around and making some decent recordings for what they were, but nothing really serious.

Ok, I went ahead and installed Sonar 7 and OMG is it complicated, or I'm a complete moron. Either way, to say I am struggling is an understatement. I have been scouring the internet looking for tutorials and been watching a buttload of Utube vids. Running through the UX2 I have been able to get sound in/out, at the most basic level. I have been pretty much focusing my time, trying to figure out how to layout my drum tracks.

My first thought was just to use my Alesis SR-16 to create my patterns, layout the song and then record it to Sonar, but having found all the built in drums, the session drummer, and step sequencer, I'm thinking theres a better way that will give much more control over the drum part. I have been playing with the step sequencer and have watched several vids on it and have created drum patterns, but so far I have not been able to figure out how to write/use more than one pattern and have not been able to setup the drums the way I want.

Ok let me explain what I am trying to do.

User Defind Kit. I want to put together a custom kit utilizing drums from several of the preset kits. I think this is done through drum mapping, but I am still trying to figure that out.
Individual tracks for individual drums. That way my Kick drum and snare, for example, are on their own tracks and I can use different effects, eq'ing and paning for each.
Master Drum Track. Not sure of the proper termenology, but basically I want to take the individual drum tracks and sub them out to a master track or bus so that once I get the individual drums tracks set just the way I want them, I then use the master track to mix all the drums at once.

The best I can figure it so far, is that I want to create a track folder for the drums. I then need to create individual tracks for all the drums. The individual tracks input from the individual drums and output to the drum master track. The problem I am having so far is figuring out how to do the drum map for my custom drum set and then assigning that to a track so I can use the step sequencer to actually write my drum part. Anyway, I know it sounds complicated, but once I get it working, I just save the setup as a template and from then on it will be as easy. Everything but the actual writing of the drum pattern will already be done.

As I said, I have been googling my butt off and watching lots of utube and other vids on the subject. I have joined several forums for recording and the reading has started. So far I have found enough info to know its possible, but the that key piece I need is evading me for the moment.

So why am I bothering to try and tackle something so complicated right out of the gate? I believe anything less would be a waste of my time. Everything I will be doing is going to have to be done with sequenced drums. There's not a drummer in this town that can handle a lot of the drum tracks I will be needing. Not that their overly complicated, but this town just don't have any really good drummers. Also, I believe that the bass and drums is the backbone of any good recording and thus, I believe that next to my bass playing, the drum tracks are going to be the critical element in making a quality recording. Also, I want to make my canned drums sound as real as possible. Heck, I'm already toying with the idea of buying a hi hat and a couple of cymbals and mixing real cymbals on top of the canned drums.
 
Randy - if you can afford it buy EZ Drummer...honestly it makes drums a total piece of piss.

Along with the several hundred drum loops in EZ Drummer, you can then buy midi drum loops off the shelf for a whole range of music genres and just drag and drop them in. Groove Monkee do some great loops for not a lot and it will save you a heap of time programming them in.

Quick tip: you can 'groove clip' a short drum sequence and then drag it out so it repeats for as long as you want. Just right click the midi loop and select 'groove clip looping'.

I'll have a quick look at Session Drummer tonight and try and figure out what you're after. Other than this issue, is there anything else fundamental you're struggling with in Sonar?

I found the whole softsynth thing a bit of a pain until I got used to it...now it's second nature.
 
Thanks Gman, appreciate the comments/help. Ive been doing alot of reading on the cakewalk forum and am finding alot of good info. Of coarse its really hard right now weeding through all the Sonar 8 and 8.5 stuff.

Anyway, just read all this last night so haven't had a chance to play with it yet, will try it this afternoon. The first thing I read that intriguied me is that I can have more than 1 instance of session drummer running at a time, each instance giving me 8 pads so I can simulate 2 drummers playing at once or make myself a much bigger drum kit, which really appeals to me. I love playing with drummers that have big kits. I also found out that with session drummer there is a setting (just have to find it) that allows you to output each pad to individual tracks or to a master track, which is exactly what I am after. Also I read that you write a pattern or groove clip as cakewalk calls it and that you can write as many as you need and arrange them as you need them. So far I have been able to write one, and have been able to stretch it and stuff, but when I try to write another/different pattern, it overwrites the first so I will work on figuring that out today as well.

Pre-made drum tracks or groove tracks, I'm not really interested in. Yes they would be very good/handy as a writting aid or for practice, but when it comes to my personal music, I really want to write all the tracks myself to ensure that harmony, or perhaps a better word, sycopation between the bass and drums. But then again, not being a drummer, I have to admit that using a pre-made drum clip as a template can help me write the part I need, especially when it comes to fills. So I will look into EZDrummer.

Soft Synths. So far it seems pretty straight forward, but I havent played with it much except to load session drummer and to explore the other available synths a little.

So far, I havent really done anything but play with this drum thing, so I haven't found anything I'm stuck with yet, but I am sure that will change as I start to get a little more indepth. I haven't even got there yet and am already starting to wonder about layering effects on the individual channels. Like can I set individual settings for various tracks using the same effect, compressor for example, or do I have to run a seperate instance of that effect for each track. I'm guessing it will require seperate instances of the same effect, but thats just a guess at the moment, will find out soon enough.

Basically, I want to get the drums layed out the way I want them, then I will lay down a bass track so I can then tweak the drums, tuning and basic effects, to achieve the overall drum sound/layout I am after. At that point I will delete my bass part and save the whole thing as a template. That way all the hard work is done and I can then concentrate on making my music without having to reinvent the wheel everytime.

Anyway, now that I have sat here and rambled on about it, I want to actually go to sonar and try it out.

I do have one question, maybe its a stupid questions, but .... If I purchase and install a virtual instrument suite like EZ or Superior Drummer or any of the The Native Instruments suites.. to use them in Sonar, they would be a soft synth and thus loaded in the synth rack like the synths that came bundled with Sonar? And does Sonar automatically detect these or will I have to tell Sonar where they are?

Thanks again for all the help, comments and advice.
 
oh, BTW Callum, I did join the musicxp site. Hehehe $3.34. Yea, I agree, money well spent. Alot of the tips I already knew and do, but there are some pretty basic things I didn't know that I think will be very helpful in optimizing my system, so thanks for the help, much appreciated.
 
Hi Randy,

Sorry, I had to do some work last night so didn't hit the studio, I think I know how to do what you want...just want to check before I give you some duff info!

Is the drum pattern overwriting the first or being laid on top? You can turn 'track layers' on for each track which shows multiple takes on the same track. I think it's probably writing a new layer on top of the existing layer (but you can't see it).

Once you've got your drum groove extended, you can add in cymbals, fills, etc just by clicking in 'notes' via the 'piano view'. Just double click the clip in the track and it will open in piano view.

Yes, if you install any VSTi it will appear as a softsynth - you load in exactly the same way as any of the included soft synths. They should be auto detected but sometimes the installation goes in the wrong place so you may need to move a file occasionally.

I'll come back to you on the session drummer thing :)

G
 
Just my $0.02 on drum VSTi's...I've tried a number of them, including ez drummer, and I think Addictive Drums is the best. check it out Randy: XLN Audio
 
Gerry have you tried Steven Slate drums? Just wondering if they're as good as they're hyped up to be.

Randy - ok, it's easy! When you load Session Drummer, when it comes up with that little dialogue box, ensure the 'enable all audio outputs' box is checked.

Then when Session Drummer is open, where there are all 1's across the panel under the images, just click on the number and move your mouse upwards. This will change the number to 2, 3, 4, etc. Set a different number for each channel.

You'll then notice that in Sonar, in the Session Drummer synth folder (usually right at the bottom) will have multiple track panes - each one will represent the different channels. Try muting one and it should work (you'll see the hits show in the meter). You can then either add effects and eq to each of those panes or you can bus the channel (or multiple channels) to an effect or eq bus. Good bussing tutorial here: Third Take Sonar Busing Praxis

Hope this does it for you!

G
 
Right on, thank you. Armed with the info I read the other night I went and found the all tracks thing and checked it, and it did make a folder with individual tracks, but everything was still only going to one track and I couldn't figure it out. Now I read your post and know exactly what you are talking about because I noticed those ones and it never occured to me that was track numbers and I could change them. Now that you explained it, I feel so stupid. It was within my grasp and I was too thick to figure it out ... lol

As to layering one pattern over the other, I don't think thats whats happening. What I think is going on, is that I am not saving the first pattern before trying to write the second.

It will be a while before I will be able to purchase any software. I think the first purchase I need to make is a midi keyboard.

I have seen alot of talk, the hype you mentioned, about the slate drums on the cakewalk forum and so far I haven't seen a negative review. People really are raving about it.
 
Actually I had a quick listen to Session Drummer tonight and it's not bad...I think with some processing it could sound reasonable...you can also download (for free) samples for the kits, so that might help a little too.

Glad I was able to help...took me ages to work out how to do that same thing with EZD, so I already had an idea of what to look for!

Any other q's, just fire away!
 
Again Thank You Everyone for your help, tips, and other comments, and for the offer of continued help. That is most generous, much appreciated, and I'm sure, I'll have tons more questions the deeper I get into this.

I just checked out Addictive Drums website and wow, that looks awesome and the sampled sounds they use in their demo videos are very sweet sounding indeed. Some of the best sampled cymbal sounds I have ever heard. I heard drum parts, both from regular drum machines and from various synths, that when done by someone that really knows what they are doing, are almost undistinguishable from real drums, but its always the cymbals that give them away, but, judging just from the demo videos, AD may have gotten some cymbal samples that will make that a thing of the past. At $199 maybe I should put AD fairly high on my priority list. Thanks Gastrok for the heads up. Funny tho, they included presets of DW (which I like a lot), Tama and Sonar drums, but not Pearl (which I also like alot), Ludwig (some of the best snares Ive ever heard) or Yamaha (which I could live without but would have included over Sonar). But thats just me being hyper-critical. Like I said, the demos I heard all sounded great.
 
BassPlyr Randy said:
oh, BTW Callum, I did join the musicxp site. Hehehe $3.34. Yea, I agree, money well spent. Alot of the tips I already knew and do, but there are some pretty basic things I didn't know that I think will be very helpful in optimizing my system, so thanks for the help, much appreciated.
Click to expand...

NP randy, happy to have helped, even if it was only some basic stuff :) Wish i knew more about sonar etc to help you but all me experience is with Ableton live, Nuendo, and more recently using linux for audio - well if i can get ubuntu studio configured and stable ;)
 
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