Need advice/ opinions on revised gig rig

Goatrope

Goatrope

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Hello Team Warwick! Apologies in advance for the long read, but I wanted to include as much data as I could.

I could use your advice or opinions about reconfiguring my gig rig.

Here's what I have:
Demeter VTBP-201s preamp
Crown XLS1500 poweramp
SWR BigFoot 2X12 4oHm cab (65 pounds)
Carvin 2X10 4oHm cab
Occasionally I'll use a compressor depending on which bass I'm running.

Here's where I play:
Pubs
Movie Theater-sized rooms
Outdoor/ festival scenarios, some street-level, some larger

What I play:
Rock covers, mostly classic rock stuff
Funky, danceable stuff

My current situations:
I'm in one band that does the classic rock/cover thing. It's a hobby and a load of fun for a bunch of us older guys. We play for the love of playing (meaning we rarely get paid, and when we do, we donate the money to a worthy cause). I'm fortunate to also play out as a sub in other (working) local bands. The subbing seems to be on the rise lately.

The challenge:
I've been trying to lighten my load, and have made good progress just in moving to the Crown amp, which saved be over 30lbs. I've made an attempt to go direct to PA through the Demeter alone, but I'm having some real difficulty trying to get a decent bass sound FOH in my regular cover band.

I love my sound guy (another hobbyist), but he just doesn't hear the same as I do, so I've become increasingly dis-satisfied with the FOH direct sound. I'm not just talking about cutting through, or getting the *perfect* bass tone, I simply want to hear the bass volume as it should be heard, and I can't get there with him. When I go direct, I use in-ear monitors, which are cool, the monitor mix is controlled by me and is fine, but when I walk out front (wireless just for this reason) and listen to what the audience hears, I'm just sickened.

So this has me reconsidering going back to controlling my own destiny by trotting out all my cabinets and power amp again. I do this when I'm subbing, but my existing amp and cabs aren't enough for the larger rooms. So, now I'm thinking about updating the equipment and have listened to some nice stuff, and have an idea of what I want to do, but wanted to run this all by you guys because I've come to respect the opinions of folks here very much as opposed to some other forums.

I want lightweight, higher-power, articulate and pure, and scalable to a variety of venue sizes. I'm competing with two guitars, keyboards, drums. The PA has powered subs and powered mains, I think they're about 3000W per side.

Here's what I'm looking at as a potential setup:
Same Demeter Pre
Replace the Crown XLS1500 with a XLS2500 poweramp
Use two Bergantino CN212 cabs (46 pounds each) instead of existing SWR and Carvin cabs

Do you guys think this setup would have enough "balls" to get the job done? I've heard the CN212s and they sound good to me, and are capable of handling more power/ producing more db than my current 2X12 cab plus my 2X10, and weigh less. I think I could run this setup in full or in half (one side of the XLS2500 and one Berg Cab) depending on where I am.

What do you think?

-Tom
 
I think Tech21 VTbass will save your FOH ass.
 
Hmmm. I don't want to go back to running through the FOH. But I'll do some research on that one. I'm skeptical about a pedal though.


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I was, too. It does bring otherwise cold and dead sounding D.I. tone to life m8.
You will still want to have a rig for smaller venues though.
 
I would say your issue is FOH, not stage. Its never going to be easy trying to balance half the band running mainly through FOH, and the rest trying to push their sound from stage....pretty much unmixable unless you et the sound guy control your main volume.
IMHO you will need to first communicate with the soundy the type of sound you are after (this wil probably be the hardest part by far) and then getting the right mic or DI to ensure the sound guy has the right tone to work with.
I am of the personal opinion that amps and cabs on stage are for a) creating the right tone and b) providing sound for the band. FOH is for the audience. Imagine (from behind the desk) trying to balance a tricky or boomy room when you have no control over the bass volume....
 
Yeah, really good points there. At next practice I was planning to do some A-B time with my sound guy. We have a really large rehearsal space and set up the full PA. I'll bring my rig and see if I can get him to hear that, then switch back to FOH. Maybe we can work that out.

I'm just getting panicky because we did a show last Saturday, and I wasn't happy with the result. We're doing a benefit at a large outdoor venue in a few weeks and I just don't want to be lost in the mix.


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This will sound like a thoughtless answer but I did read this entire thread. My thoughts, sell all of your gear and get a good, more compact rig. I went Mesa last year and the results have been game changing to say the least. Granted I'm running an M9 Carbine through a 4x12 fridge so I have more power than necessary but if you look at something like an M6 Carbine and a 2x12 you'd have more than enough oomph to control your destiny on stage and you'd have a good DI sound to the main board. All that in a easier to manage package.

As for FOH, you really need to express your opinion. You need to be heard. If he doesn't know how to remedy this, he needs to learn how.
 
No, doesn't sound thoughtless. Quite the contrary. I'll read up on the M6 but I really like the sound of my preamp. The power amp is fairly transparent and is 700W + per side. It's got some oomph. Just not enough to handle out front. That's why I was first thinking just get more power and better cabs. I always lusted after the Mesa stuff. I've gotten to the Demeter after any years of trying different things. Still, I'm open to try more.

If I use my existing rig, and lose the in ear monitors, the stage levels are fine. But that rig won't compete out front at the larger shows.

How are you monitoring? Are you using wedges? I've got keys and one guitar going direct and everyone using in ears. My monitor mix is good. I'm just lost FOH.

Common theme seems to be the Sound guy. I need to work that out. Great guy but damn. I guess this is more of a personnel issue. He was with them before me and a close friend. Since it's not a "professional" situation, they don't mind if he fumbles around. I've bought him books, read them with him, talk to him all the time. He's either not getting it or passive resistant. I only know it doesn't sound good.


Edit to add:

The challenge with my FOH sound has worsened since we started using a new board. It's a somewhat complex unit and it may just be that it's over his head. It's digital and it's been a steep learning curve for the guy. Behringer x32. Maybe we need to go back to basics there.




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I'm just throwing the Mesa name out there because I have experience with it. However with that experience I can tell you it's a beast tone-wise and room filling volume-wise. If you're happy with your current pre/power amps going to a really good cab can still help. DiMarco and probably many others can attest to how much of a difference a well designed cab can make. All that said, don't spend a ton of money trying to a fix a problem that apparently isn't lying with your gear. The problem with compensating for that bad sound guy and trying to fill the venue with your amp will A. piss off your band mates on stage because you'll drown them out and B. won't really get you the FOH tone your after. Only those standing directly in front of your rig will get the sound you're trying to push out. Everyone else in the room will get different results depending on where they are standing. That's where it's the sound guy's job to make everyone sound good in the mix and even across the room. Like you said, he's either purposely not listening to you or just simply doesn't know how to mix the bass. A new board probably isn't helping if he doesn't have the basics under control first. It may be time to be especially firm with him about fixing it and offer to work with him during the process. You have a wireless so that's a perfect way for you to play and stand right next to him while he mixes. If he's giving you bad sound just to spite you you need to express that to your band mates and if they aren't down with your concerns well you know where that can go. I know it's a frustrating situation. I've worked with some fantastic sound guys and on the other hand some absolutely horrible guys. Always seems the horrible ones are on a power trip but a quick reminder of why they're there and what they need to do if they want to get paid straightens them out. Unless your dealing with the venue's sound guy then you're at his mercy regardless.

To answer your question, I'm using wedges for monitoring. I'd love some in ears though. My band side washes our amps since it's just my bass and the guitarist. Side washing keeps stage volumes low and let's the sound guy really be able to work with his rig and not have to compete with us throwing our stage sound into his mix.

Good luck!
 
Great stuff. Thanks a lot. I think you've convinced me to stop avoiding the real issue. I need to work with the Sound guy some more. I hate to think it but you're right. If he isn't getting it done, a change has to follow. I have other options but still hate to play the "him or me" card. We're all pretty close but it's bugging me enough to whine to you guys, so I need to deal with it.

Thanks again. I'm still going to check out the Mesa, and I'll play with Dimarco's suggestion too. Not to solve this problem but just because I love gear. Can't ever have enough. :)


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Goatrope said:
Great stuff. Thanks a lot. I think you've convinced me to stop avoiding the real issue. I need to work with the Sound guy some more. I hate to think it but you're right. If he isn't getting it done, a change has to follow. I have other options but still hate to play the "him or me" card. We're all pretty close but it's bugging me enough to whine to you guys, so I need to deal with it.

Thanks again. I'm still going to check out the Mesa, and I'll play with Dimarco's suggestion too. Not to solve this problem but just because I love gear. Can't ever have enough. :)


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I love me some gear too. Still trying to sell some of the stuff I really don't need any more. Best of luck with the sound guy thing. I hope it works out so everyone walks away happy.
 
You cant really fight the sound guy. If you don't work together they can kill your sound, by spite or by omission. And I have seen both. It is possible to mix yourselves, and I know many bands that will do their own sound, usually to save money and to have more control. Plenty of cover bands here have a rack for their sound that sits next to the drummer, holding all their eq's, gates etc and power amps.
 
You're right. The guy is not malicious at all. He's just lost. Next practice I'm coming in to meet him an hour early to start the conversation again.


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Lost is good, well in the circumstances, he is willing to learn, at least he isn't pissed off!
I have recently seen a sound guy who have been totally ignoring the band because they were a bit rude to him. guy was at the desk the whole time with us, super friendly, tweaking FOH and monitors, we sounded great. Next band came in and tried to tell him how to do his job, when he was clearly an expert, and made a bad impression- BAM sound guy is off having a smoke and they struggled with a poor monitor mix and disappearing guitars till halfway through the set!
 
That's an asshole, not an expert! An expert does the job done, then kick their asses.
I suppose we cannot do a ♣♣♣♣ty gig if the club owner tell us how to do our job. At the end of the day we have to make the audience happy. So does the sound guy.
 
Always the same thing. Last saturday I also was driven to thinning out my bass sound. In the end I carried a whole SVT-stack to the place and used it for no more than some better monitoring. We played together with a second band and the sound guy was their man. Just the next guy who doesn´t like to hear the bass. Most of the crowd came for us. After the show they told us that they felt great but missed the massage of my SVT. All I could do was to play my fingers bleeding for maximum output of the bass. I developed my sound in a way, that I can pump the basses into the crowd without beeing too boomy or bugging. It´s o.k. if a professional sound guy aligns the sound of the band to the place you are currently playing at. But he shall not disfigure it.

Otoh if a band decides to ruin their own sound let them do it. It´s a part of a learning process. ;) I would not discuss the situation but would lean back and let them play ♣♣♣♣ty. Their fault.
 
Play quieter.

Other band members will protest, you confirm their opinion.
I had episodes with literally blood on strings and it didn't help.
Play quieter, leave headache to sound engineer, it works.
 
Haha... no.
 
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Funny!:lol:

Actually, I tried that quiet approach this past weekend and it helped.

The practice after my last posts I had a long talk with my sound guy. I got him to listen to my cabs then listen to FOH. A very dim lightbulb went on... He just didn't know what to do to fix the EQ so we made a few passes together and tweaked until I was happy.

The following practice I was right back to the beginning, as if we never talked.

Fast forward to the gig this past Sunday, and out-door, festival-type situation. I had my rig on stage for stage fill and abandoned the in-ears since we had multiple guests playing with us who had no IEMs (long story about rain delays and alternate musicians). FOH bass EQ started off as crap. I used my wireless to confirm the concerns of my friends out front. Sub-woofer Hell. All mud. I played quieter..

Several folks went over to the board to protest. It wasn't just my sound but just a poor overall mix. With enough third-party pressure he managed to tweak out a decent sound including nice punchy bass. It took half a set but we got there. I didn't want to hold the audience hostage, but it seemed to get results. Hopefully the message is beginning to stick.

Epilogue:I did order a CN212. This is mostly due to GAS but also my back is killing me from moving gear this past weekend. My current cabs are nearly a couple decades old and not the most efficient either. The CN212 will replace the other two for most situations. I guess I'll be dropping about 30kg.
 
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