My Thumb likes to be told what to do, but not how to do it... a short story.

Avram

Avram

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As some of you may have noticed, I have been jonesing for an EBS Microbass II, for like ever. I finally got one, tried it with my Thumb BO 5, and was sadly unimpressed. Not with the unit itself, the Microbass II is an impressive piece of musical gear. But my Thumb was unimpressed. I slapped, shaped, strummed and adjusted for a few days, but couldn't get a better (read $400 better) tone out of my Thumb than straight to the ProFet 5.1 or headphones. So I returned it, with regret.

I got a Sansamp Para Driver DI for my lady-friend to tone down the harshness of her guitar's single EMG 81 at the bridge (does this very, very well by the way), and tried my Thumb through that too. Funny, instead of finding a warmer tone I liked (as I expected), I could really only get a higher mid-range (@ 800-900hz boosted a bit) twangy fingerstyle sound out of it I liked. Sounds really cool actually. The low mid-boost didn't do for me what I expected. So I'm leaving that device to her, which she loves for her guitar. It is also a nice piece of musical gear.

These were the two most desired pieces of pre-ampery I've been looking at for my Thumb, and both left me wanting. Because the Thumb sounded better without em! I'm beginning to think my Thumb wants to be left alone and not told how to do its job. Seems like a kick ass tube amp (Ampeg SVT 2/4 pro, Mesa M6/M9 or Big Block) and some nice cabinets are all it wants. Still....

I cant help but wonder how I can boost its low end punch a bit. Not boomy, just a bit o' fullness, and accentuation of its native sound with more definition in the low-mids. So I have been looking...

Seems Ryan Martinie, who uses Thumbs exclusively, sets himself up with an SVT and Avalon 5U and that's about it! I figure he knows what he's doing (sure as hell 'sounds' like he knows what he's doing :twisted: ), but I have also seen other bassists I admire, such as Robert Trujillo, using the BBE Sonic Maximizer to 'round out' their sound. Though Robert uses Streamers (amongst many other brands), and not Thumbs. BBE makes a $100 stomp box version that is tempting...

So to all you Thumb owners: Have any of you used a device to round out or boost your Thumb's sound? Any experience with either the Avalon 5U or BBE Sonic Maximizer? These are pretty much the last two devices I am considering for tone enhancement, and they are in a fairly different price range. I may get a distortion/overdrive pedal such as the MXR M80 DI+ or Ashdown Lomenzo Hyperdrive, but am now just looking for a good signal booster to enhance the Thumb's already awesome sound. Just to clear the signal and let the lows through, so to speak.

Entirely possible I'm chasing a dream here, but I know the Thumb has a voice that just needs to be amplified properly. Short of dropping 2 grand on a new bass head, I'm hoping a good pre-amp would do the the trick. Or should I just save up for that 70lb Ampeg head. :eek:

Anyway, thanks for reading!
 
Avram, There is probably no substitute for a (all tube) SVT if that is the sound you are looking for. However, before I was fortunate enough to find my SVT (Pro2, $600.00 bucks in the classified ad) I was running an SVT Pro 3 (tube/mosfet hybrid) with a BBE sonic max and Alesis compressor through the effects loop into 2- 4x10's with fantastic results. The tone from the head alone was desent but kind of thin and weak. The BBE definatly adds depth/clarity and available boost and seems to shine with a solid state amp(I dont really here it with my tube head), and compression is a must with any rig(IMHO). I dont have any experience with the Avalon unit. Also if you haven't tried it yet, the Sansamp Bass Driver DI kicks ass as well. I still use it in front of my current rig as a signal boost, and the fact that you can dial in as much or as little grit as you want rules, plus its a high quality DI. I hope this helps.
 
Avram, There is probably no substitute for a (all tube) SVT if that is the sound you are looking for. However, before I was fortunate enough to find my SVT (Pro2, $600.00 bucks in the classified ad) I was running an SVT Pro 3 (tube/mosfet hybrid) with a BBE sonic max and Alesis compressor through the effects loop into 2- 4x10's with fantastic results. The tone from the head alone was desent but kind of thin and weak. The BBE definatly adds depth/clarity and available boost and seems to shine with a solid state amp(I dont really here it with my tube head), and compression is a must with any rig(IMHO). I dont have any experience with the Avalon unit. Also if you haven't tried it yet, the Sansamp Bass Driver DI kicks ass as well. I still use it in front of my current rig as a signal boost, and the fact that you can dial in as much or as little grit as you want rules, plus its a high quality DI. I hope this helps.
 
you found that man!! I often got worst tone thru mixer with my Thumb 5 NT, the sounds is super treble and every body hate it....I don't know why.

Compare to other bass, the tone of Thumb is dry, I think it cuased by the stronge mid, I think it needs a warm equipment, equipment with tube, I used have a Trace Elliot GMX12 preamp, I turn the tube all the way. I also got good tone with AMPEG.

those is just my personal idea, the sounds of the bass may caused by many element.....
 
Hi Avram,

As I said before in this forum, the thumb bass was the only bass I couldn't get a better sound than the flat EQ one. To me it is a perfect sounding bass, you don't need to care about anything.

Also it is very sensible to your right hand technique position, so basically playing softer, and moving your hand closer to the neck will bring arounder and softer sound, while playing over the pickups will wake up the animal inside.

It also has a very interesting character. It seems very Jaco - ish- dry and trebbly when played alone, but in the mix it is placed very low. The guys in front hear a low, and tight sound, with not much high mids and treble really.

Anyway, I will reply to your questions.
If Ryan is using Avalon U5 that means only one thing: - he sends the clean signel to the FOH, then he uses the Ampeg for monitoring :-) That's what the U5 is doing - getting the best out of your natural sound of the bass. It is a very good choice!
The Hellborg Preamp is doing pretty much the same thing, as the U5, but you have some nice EQ settings, and the natural "flat" sound seems to be better tuned for a bass player. But U5 is great too! Highly recommended!

BBE Maximizer is just a piece of crap if you ask me. I used one in my rig, for about 6 months, and took it out after. It will not make your thumb sound better, and it will not make it rounder. But hey... this is just my experience, for my musical taste, so if you like it, use one. But it is like combining a platinum ring with a glass ornament.

Use a diamond baby!

The thumb bass has a very special and different way to sit in the mix. However it is a very correct sound, so you better get used with it, leave the EQ alone, and use your technique to get the desired sound. To me it was the most versatile bass in the world!
 
Thanks Florin, kinda what I am coming to realize. I do play dynamically, that is, I try to vary my attack and style to match the mood of the music, and the Thumb is very responsive to that. When I play well, it sounds amazing, when I don't play well, it lets me know.

I've been doing a lot of research on the BBE Maximizer and have come to agree with your sentiment. The bass boosting sounds intriguing, but the Thumb doesn't really seem to need that. I like the Thumb for its particular characteristics, and never really thought I could improve upon them much, or need to.

The Avalon seems like a nice unit (as the does the Hellborg pre). I guess I'm looking for something to polish the signal or something. Maybe I just need a volume pedal, heh heh. But your comment on getting the best out of the natural sound of the bass sounds nice. I may have to find an Avalon and try it out.

Cheers!
 
The dynamics are a good point with the Thumb. When I first started playing bass a long time ago, I played on amps that generally weren't that powerful and in order to be heard over the guitar and drums I learned to play with a very "heavy" right hand, and the sound was phenomenal. Fast forward to the past few years when I was gigging with a Thumb NT 6 and a rig so strong that anything over 1 or 2 on the master volume was too loud for the rest of the band. The result was that I started playing softer but more consistently in tone, but I wasn't as happy with my sound. My solution was to back off my volume just a bit so that I had to "fight" for my place in the mix again, and I reverted to (almost) plucking up near the neck (there isn't really a neck position on a Thumb). That brought back the punchy-thumpy sound I had used for years and loved. Hope that is helpful.
 
Maybe using a good compressor?

FOr the AMpeg sound: I have this Tech21 VT Bass pedal at home for a review. I played it, using the settings suggested by Tech21 to make a SVT-tone. They also have one for a Fliptop-tone) If you record with it, it sounds like an SVT, a very clean amp like the Hellborg gets this recognizable Ampeg low end. It isn't nice on a Hiwatt tube amp though. But of course there's no point using a tube amp simulator on a tbe amp..
 
i kind of get where your coming from and it is such a huge and very very touchy subject with most players.having the right sound helps me play better and countless guitar/amp/cabs later i have found one thing out..it cant be done..there is always something..its a trade off to what works best.for myself the thumb5nt into a boogie400+ with a trace elliott 4x10 (yeah i know but i love it.) its not perfect but there ya go..i have a trace quatra i use with a 1x15 boogie for small gigs but works better with my EB stingray...these days i do as best i can with the gear i have, because bottom line is i doubt ill ever be 100% happy no matter what i buy..and since i made my mind up on that i just enjoy it so more and work on my playing,all the best gear is nice but the skill is not what you have but what you do with it..(on side note!! i have and always will prefare tube amps.iam old school what can i say..)
 
I think finding a warm, 'tubey' tone out of a bass whose pickups are slanted by the bridge like that is a tough thing to do without anything other than a low-end-cranked tube amp; just the nature of the beast IMO.

As far as the BBE Sonic Stomp goes, the best way I can describe it is that it makes your bass sound like you're listening to it mastered and on a CD. Thick, transparent low end and unnaturally present clarity. These are good things; the lack of midrange detail, however, is not. I sold mine, and even found that my old rackmount 382 Sonic Maximizer was a lot friendlier to my midrange.
 
The pickups location on the Thumb 5 is one of the many things I like about this bass. Super articulated notes! But of course, that comes with a noticeable loss in warmth. I played my Thumb through a Mesa M6 Carbine and was amazed at how awesome it sounded. All the fast attack and low punch I want. I'm currently looking into getting one used, and am also looking into a used Big Block 750. Different tones to be sure, but tubey goodness none the less. (The M6 has one tube in the preamp and the 750 has 4, both are Mosfet amps).

I initially started this thread because I have been practicing without an amp, straight through a Mackie mixer into my headphones. I thought I could put off purchasing a new amp until my chops were worth a grand or more, heh. But I am coming to realize that an amps color is what I need more than an emulator or sound enhancer. After all, its an electric instrument and is designed to be played amplified. I just didn't want to have to turn on a 500+ watt unit every time I practice with headphones. (I do use my Profet during the day though).

I'm scrutinizing (online) the Ampeg SVT 4, and the Mesa M6, M9 and Big Block 750. Leaning towards the Mesa M6 but the distortion stage on the 750 sounds real tasty. I wish there was a place around here to try out Ampegs, but there isnt. I may have to travel to Montreal or NY (which isn't a bad thing, just don't have time these days). But I agree with thefitz; warm tubey is the way to go to warm up the Thumb tone. I just don't want to loose the great articulation and response in the process. Tube pre and solid state amp seem the way to go, which is why I'm looking at the amps mentioned above. So pricey though...
 
I don't want to necessarily name drop other companies on this site, but the used market is the way to go, and SVT4PROs should be plentiful and the cheapest option out of all of them. The soon to be released Hartke Kilo seems to be better than the 4PRO (they're essentially the same amp) at half the price... but again why knows when you'll be able to try it.

There's always Ampeg SVX if you're really desperate to get a feel for the 4PRO... I think the M9 is the best choice in that lot.
 
Avram said:
The pickups location on the Thumb 5 is one of the many things I like about this bass. Super articulated notes! But of course, that comes with a noticeable loss in warmth. I played my Thumb through a Mesa M6 Carbine and was amazed at how awesome it sounded. All the fast attack and low punch I want. I'm currently looking into getting one used, and am also looking into a used Big Block 750. Different tones to be sure, but tubey goodness none the less. (The M6 has one tube in the preamp and the 750 has 4, both are Mosfet amps).

I initially started this thread because I have been practicing without an amp, straight through a Mackie mixer into my headphones. I thought I could put off purchasing a new amp until my chops were worth a grand or more, heh. But I am coming to realize that an amps color is what I need more than an emulator or sound enhancer. After all, its an electric instrument and is designed to be played amplified. I just didn't want to have to turn on a 500+ watt unit every time I practice with headphones. (I do use my Profet during the day though).

I'm scrutinizing (online) the Ampeg SVT 4, and the Mesa M6, M9 and Big Block 750. Leaning towards the Mesa M6 but the distortion stage on the 750 sounds real tasty. I wish there was a place around here to try out Ampegs, but there isnt. I may have to travel to Montreal or NY (which isn't a bad thing, just don't have time these days). But I agree with thefitz; warm tubey is the way to go to warm up the Thumb tone. I just don't want to loose the great articulation and response in the process. Tube pre and solid state amp seem the way to go, which is why I'm looking at the amps mentioned above. So pricey though...
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have you ever ever considered the boogie 400+? or played with one..just interested given the list above,yes its an older style and not many i would think like them given i have hardly ever seen them used..have my own years and its never let me down.tubes are expensive all the same..
 
The 400+ looks cool, but 12 power amp tubes, even though they run cool, is just ridiculous.
 
I have considered the 400+, but I'm thinking tube-pre and mosfet-power are for me, at least with this bass. It'll warm it up, but still maintain (boost actually) all the clarity, punch and attack I love from the Thumb.

I'm still waiting to hear about a BB750, and I may pm a guy on TB tonight about his M6 Carbine he posted last month.

thefitz said:
I think the M9 is the best choice in that lot.
Click to expand...

I have been researching a lot lately, and given my brief experience with the M6, I'm beginning to agree. The M9 is real nice, like an M6, but with a graphic eq, compressor and 300 more watts. There is actually an M9 in town here, at a local music store. Its new, so I probably wont buy it just yet, $1500 is a bit too much for me right now. But at least I can play it and compare it to the M6, which again, was amazing to my ears with my Thumb.

FWIW, the M6 can be set up with a separate (like Voodoo lab) footswitcher so as to engage all 5 preset tones; 5 switches, one tone per, from one head, not bad. Whereas the M9 comes with a footswitch that allows for graphic eq functions on/off with or without one of the presets; two tones on one head at the flick of footswitch. The BB750 has a footswitch too, but its a distortion on/off switch, which I find very appealing, no need for a stompbox, and its a 4 tube distortion. All have mute functions with the footswitch too.

Maybe Sunday I'll check out the M9. I haven't seen any used yet.

This little journey has got me dreaming lately about bi-amping. Mesa BB750 for the dirty/overdrive, and my Profet 5.1 for the clean. hmmm.... Excessive, but tempting. Oh well...

In the mean time, I'm gonna play my bass as is and often, so as to justify this insane tone-chasing psychosis I'm feeding. :twisted:
 
I recently set up my rig to quasi-biamp, and it has finally solved my years long struggle with my tone issues.

I run my 18" Big Ben via the low-end output of the crossover of my SM-900 (crossed over at ~340Hz), and run my Powerhouse 212 full range, both cabs on the floor, but the 212 on casters. That way, I can literally dial in as much low-end as I want, via the volume knob of the Big Ben. It turns out that, believe it or not, the Big Ben is a really harsh sounding cab run full-range. I spent years trying to dial that harshness out, never thinking it was my subwoofer cab causing the problem!

My initial reason for this setup was to get a stereo compressor, and to compress the hell out of the low-channel, and gently compress the full-range channel. I quickly noticed that merely splitting the signal like that took care of everything!

I prefer a very linear effects chain and run my effects straight into the input of the amp, but none of my effects compromise my low end. I'm very, VERY happy with my setup now, as it's changed my Vampyre from something cool I keep in its case to my main axe.
 
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