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Which amp???

Discussion in 'Bass Amps & Cabinets' started by Patrik, Jul 19, 2006.

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  1. Patrik

    Patrik

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    Hello,

    I'm about to buy amplification for my new Corvette $$. I haven't played since almost a decade and I'm lacking the last years development on the market. The specification looks like this...:

    Minimum requirements:
    -Should be loud enough in the rehearsal room with a loud rock band.
    -Possibility to upgrade with more cabs.

    Nice to have:
    -Should be loud enough for small gigs without PA.
    -Fairly portable.

    My budget: €900/$1100/GBP620

    I've looked at several Warwick options:

    1. ProFet 5.1 + WCA 410 Pro
    2. ProFet 5.1 + WCA 411 Pro
    3. Sweet 25.1
    4. CCL ND 8 1x15"
    5. CCL ND 8 2x12"

    Am I on the right track? Pros/cons? Other suggestions? All comments are highly appreciated!!

    /Patrik
     
  2. odominguez

    odominguez Guest

    If you go with the ProFet 5.1 make sure you buy the right cabinets (4ohms version) for it. The out put of the ProFet amp is measured at 4ohms. Therefore if you get an 8ohms cabinet you will only get around 350W out of your cabinets, instead of the 500W if you get the 8ohm impedance version of it.

    These should be both available from your local dealer. If they don't have it in stock, they can order them to the distributor in that country or area.
     
  3. Patrik

    Patrik

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    Thanks!

    I assume there's no possibility to upgrade If I go for the ProFet 5.1 and a 4x10" @ 4ohm. Buying an additional cab (1X15") @ 4ohms would result in 2 ohms. Is that possible?

    I guess the best way is to go for the ProFet 5.1 + 4x10"@8ohm + 1x15"@8ohm .... which ruins my budget .... but if I live on water and beer for the next months it might just work...
     
  4. odominguez

    odominguez Guest

    If you get the WCA 411(8ohms) + WCA 115 (8ohms), it means 1000 watts, which with the ProFet 5.1 at 4ohms will not be an advisable thing to do. Underpowering speakers can be a lot more harmful that overpowering them. You can use your ProFet 5.1 with a single WCA 411 Pro at 4 ohms and get the full 400 Watts out of the speakers if you power it with a 500 Watts RMS amp (ProFet 5.1)

    Getting an additional 115 will result in possibly damaging your speakers. And you don't need it if you've got the 4ohms version of the 411 Pro.
     
  5. Dragonlord

    Dragonlord

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    How is running a 400 watt head close to its maximum volume (without clipping of course) different than running a 1000 watt head with the volume at around 4?
     
  6. odominguez

    odominguez Guest

    The Profet 5.1 is 500 Watts, not 400. And I never said it was different than running a 1000 Watts at low volume. I just said that if wants a profet 5.1, a single 411 or 410 cabinet at 4ohms would more advisable than buy two cabinets.
     
  7. Dragonlord

    Dragonlord

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    Well, you said that "underpowering" the cabs can be more harmful than overpowering them, and I think that's wrong. Damage can be done from a clipping head, not from a lower watt but still clean signal into a cab than can take more. I mean, I've been playing for months in my living room with a 500W head into a cab than can take 850W, and I almost always play it at the lowest possible volume (1 or 2 clicks, less than 10%). If underpowering a cab was harmful, mine would be blown to pieces by now... correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like some urban legend that shouldn't be perpetualized (if this word exists anyway!).
     
  8. odominguez

    odominguez Guest

    Here's the problem Dragonlord. Speakers depend on movement to cool down. Sometimes (not always) if you underpower them, the coils can get too hot and this can cause problems. That's what I was referring to.
     
  9. Patrik

    Patrik

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    Wow, thanks for all information. I was at the local store today and tried out a lot of stuff.

    I might go for a CCL ND 8 1x15.

    Is it true that I need to attach an additional 8 ohm cab in order to get the full 250 watts out of the amp? Would the WCA-211 Pro be a good choise?

    Cheers!

    Patrik
     
  10. TBS

    TBS

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    I use a Tubepath 5.1 same power rating than the profet 5.1 with a W211 and a W115 4 omhs total load 800 Watts of RMS wattage handling, and the head is producing 500W

    The sound is full and balanced and the 211 is very portable to small venues I tend to use the head with just the W211 attached most of the time, adding the W115 on larger venues or open air shows. I play in several metal bands... I now stand confident against marshall and mesa boogie full stacks :D

    I now play a six string and the W211 handles pretty reasonably the low B, as long as I don't boost the lows too much.

    About underpowering cabs you can follow this rule

    Don't underpower your cabs below 50% of their wattage handling (for example feeding less than 500 watts to a 1000 watt load) the sound could be thin and the speaker coils can get hot easily.

    Don't overpower your cabs above 50% (feeding 1500 watts into a 1000 watt load)you could fry the coils and get distorted sounds easily.

    It is always better to underpoer your cabs within that "security" margins than overpowering them, because if your playing is very dynamic with a lot of volume peaks (slap comes to mind) underpowered cabs will take the extra output with no sweat but overpowered cabs could get damaged.
     
  11. odominguez

    odominguez Guest

    Yes, it is true. We just released a new 4ohm version of this amp, and if you buy this one, it's not necessary to add the additional speaker.
     
  12. Dragonlord

    Dragonlord

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    Well, I just discussed this with a cab expert and he told me that, as long as you don't clip the amp, the cab will be fine... have you really encountered such a problem, a speaker going dead because of low input? Because it really sounds strange to me, I mean there is no manufacturer that will tell you not to play his cabs at low volumes or they'll be damaged...
     
  13. odominguez

    odominguez Guest

    I respect your cab expert's opinion. But my experiences and references have taught me that using an amp that has a lower power rating than the amp can damage your speakers. Im not referring to playing a 1000 W at volume 1 or 2. Im referring to using a 500W amp to power 1000 watts of speakers or 300 to power 800 and stuff like that.
     
  14. Dragonlord

    Dragonlord

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    Really, can't see how a 1000W amp at 1 or 2 is different than a 500W amp at 3 or 4 (or wherever it has similar output). Of course, I see the difference between a 1000W at 2 and a 200W at 10; the difference is that the 200W at 10 is probably pushed too much and will be clipping. THAT is what will damage the speakers, not the fact that they can handle up to 800W or 1000W. I strongly believe that it's perfectly safe to use an amp with lower watts than the cab(s), as long as you use the amp with moderation and you avoid clipping. That's why I think that stating that "underpowering speakers can be a lot more harmful that overpowering them" is misleading and not true - if it was, our speakers would go dead when we played with the volume knob at 1 or 2.
    Anyway 8)
     
  15. odominguez

    odominguez Guest

    OK. Apparently opinions on this matter might vary. I will stick to my position and recommend not to buy an amp that has a lower power rating than your cab(s). This doesn't mean by any means I don't respect your opinions, this just means that I have had a different experience and a different training than what you propose. Now, it is really up to the customer to make this decision based on what he believes to be the safest way to approach the issue.
     
  16. Dragonlord

    Dragonlord

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    Yes, your opinion is still right, just expressed in a blurry way; you can indeed damage your speakers this way, just not because they are capable of handling higher watts, but because it's easier to lead the amp to clipping and think that you've still got headroom. Still, if someone uses the volume (and eq, esp. bass) knobs with moderation, they'll be fine.
     
  17. odominguez

    odominguez Guest

    Then, let's adapt both opinions into one...

    IF you buy an amp with a lower power rating than the power rating of your cabinet(s). You need to make sure you fully understand the use and capabilities of EQ cutting/boosting of frequencies and know how to get the most gain and volume out of your amp without clipping, as this may, indeed, cause your higher rated speaker cabinets to present serious issues over the course of time.
     
  18. Dragonlord

    Dragonlord

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  19. Patrik

    Patrik

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    Found my own old thread and thought I might just continue on it.....

    I'm replacing my current GK Combo with Warwick stuff. I've been looking around for a ProFet 5.1 combined with a 4 ohm W411Pro.

    I found some used stuff which I hope I can get a good deal on. The cabs are apparently not a year old yet:

    Profet IV (400W @ 4 ohm)
    W411Pro (600W, 8 ohm)
    W115Pro (400W, 8 ohm)

    I questioned the guy about pushing 1000W worth of speakers with a 400W amp and he didn't have any concern at all.

    Any suggestions or comments are appreciated!
     
  20. Grgzilla

    Grgzilla

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    Hey Patrik,some people say it's fine,some dont.It's up to you in the end.
     
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