Neck Dive

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Okay, here's my long awaited input
on double neck anythings...

*drumroll*

They stink.

The weight, the discomfort, it's just not
worth the cash you'll shell out for it imho.

HOWEVER, I see an alternative.

None other than my good buddy eViL j.

l_78e468a85cf9d0d39ca3537a033a5591.jpg


l_f879de558e7d5bbb9b09a0122100df67.jpg


What we're looking at is a bass on a stand.

Kind of like a Jalapeno on a stick.
*rimshot*

A schoche (that's pronounced sko-sh)
bit more practical for the gigging muscian
in need of two basses (or geetars) for one
show, yet does not desire a double necked
instrument.

Pretty simple really. You take a stand,
modify it and or the bass to sit properly
upon it, and when you need that fretless,
or vicea versa, you simply...

*drumroll*

walk up to it, and play it.

:D
 

golem

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trujo777 said:
some people use a wider strap. others change the
location ot the bottom pin and take it furthert up the
body
, others add leads to the inside of the elec
cavity for more weight. ..................
`


Hmmmnnn .... I relocate the end pin further down the
body
, near the output jack.

Hold your neck about 30 to 40 degree up and look in
the mirror [try not to laff or barf]. Now mentally drop
a vertical line thru the output jack location, the usual
end pin location, and the "further up" location.

OK now. Consider that the more [bass] body you see
to the right .... no left .... damned mirrors anywayz ....

OK. When more body is hung out beyond the endpin,
then the end pin carries more weight, and that weight
is pulling on the "tail end" of the strap, which is in the
opposite direction as neck dive.

Another way to say this is thus: The more effort thaz
required to support the butt end of the bass, the less
neck dive there will be. [Think about those who put
weights in the control cavity].

It's all about leverage and the length of a lever, and
the fulcrum is the top horn strap pin. The further the
end pin is from the top horn pin [by vertical thru-line]
then the lighter will be the load thaz leveraged onto
the tail end of the strap. Therefore you locate the end
pin CLOSER to the top horn pin [measuring by vertical
thru-line], to INCREASE the load on the tail end of the
strap, if you wanna remedy neck dive.

`
 

golem

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Callum said:
Thing is with a double neck depends where the
strap button is, if its in the same place on the top
bass as standard warwicks, then gravity and the
size of the body will take care of the neck dive i
think. But i'm purely speculating here i could be
very wrong.
`

I, too, am only guessing. But what I see in a
double neck is FULLY twice as much necks but
NOT FULLY twice as much body, since some is
lost in the siamese twinning. More neck, not
as much more body .... to me thaz more dive.

Not that it matters. Double necks are just for
show anywayz. Completely lacking a musical
purpose, altho, unfortunately, not unplayable.


$&@%&%&$%&@$&$&@%&@$%&@%@&$&

Now someone is gonna call me out on saying
"Completely lacking ... purpose" and point out
that they themselves, or more likely someone
they worship, could NOT POSSIBLY play some
certain tune, in the way they play it, without
their multi-neck mutant. While I'd never deny,
nor argue the veracity, that "So-and-so cannot
possibly play such-and-such" on a single neck,
I will still say multinecks are completely void of
any musical purpose. They do have a purpose,
for showmanship, and that might pay the rent.

While it's fun to play weird gear, fact remains
that, if you can't play it well enuf on a typical
rent-a-bass, then you never could really play
it at all .... that you only just knew how to look
good fakin it [repeat rent remark here]. If you
wanna throw in an "Of course I can play it cuz
I WROTE IT ..... ", then I must warn you that
the earth is about to swallow you up.

Yes I know there were parts written for URBs
with E-string extenders. The earth is rumbling.


`
 
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golem said:
trujo777 said:
some people use a wider strap. others change the
location ot the bottom pin and take it furthert up the
body
, others add leads to the inside of the elec
cavity for more weight. ..................
`


Hmmmnnn .... I relocate the end pin further down the
body
, near the output jack.

Hold your neck about 30 to 40 degree up and look in
the mirror [try not to laff or barf]. Now mentally drop
a vertical line thru the output jack location, the usual
end pin location, and the "further up" location.

OK now. Consider that the more [bass] body you see
to the right .... no left .... damned mirrors anywayz ....

OK. When more body is hung out beyond the endpin,
then the end pin carries more weight, and that weight
is pulling on the "tail end" of the strap, which is in the
opposite direction as neck dive.

Another way to say this is thus: The more effort thaz
required to support the butt end of the bass, the less
neck dive there will be. [Think about those who put
weights in the control cavity].

It's all about leverage and the length of a lever, and
the fulcrum is the top horn strap pin. The further the
end pin is from the top horn pin [by vertical thru-line]
then the lighter will be the load thaz leveraged onto
the tail end of the strap. Therefore you locate the end
pin CLOSER to the top horn pin [measuring by vertical
thru-line], to INCREASE the load on the tail end of the
strap, if you wanna remedy neck dive.

`

Sorry I could not understand this brief explanation Golem brother, what I mean is to relocate the butt's end of the bass' pin further away from the output jack (closer to the face of the player) therefore making the butt laff lower when strapped and eliminating the beck dive. I will try weights first to reduce the dive a little bit before making any new holes onto the bass's body though. been thinking about this for quite some time now.
 

golem

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`

Look at me. I stand before you playing bass.
See me as a map. That means the neck is
pointing east, actually "east by notheast".

Raising or lowering the bass is why straps are
adjustable in length. I'm a talking about moving
the end pin to a more easterly latitude on the
bass, regardless of whether the end pin happens
to also migrate north or south whilst moving east.

With the bass neck at playing angle, a strap pin
near the output jack is at a much more easterly
latitude than a strap pin perched on the upper
rear butt curve. AAMOF, the upper rear spot is
even more WESTERLY than the traditional dead
center end pin location. That will either increase
neck dive, or provoke it where it wasn't happnin
in the first place. ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` ` :-(

#%&@#%@#&@%#%&@#%&%#%&@#&@#%&


I often relocate my end pins to the lower rear
butt curve, near the jack, which is usually the
most practical way of moving it as far eastward
as possible. Because this is also more southerly
than the traditional center-rear, I need a long
strap. This is very OK cuz most straps in stock
at GC are the long sizes for the low-slung silly
looking player.

Any of the still-more-easterly possible end-pin
locations will interfere with the intended use of
the "waist-line" curves on either the upper, or
lower, edge of the bass [clearance for my right
forearm, or right thigh].


`
 
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golem said:
trujo777 said:
some people use a wider strap. others change the
location ot the bottom pin and take it furthert up the
body
, others add leads to the inside of the elec
cavity for more weight. ..................
`


Hmmmnnn .... I relocate the end pin further down the
body
, near the output jack.

Hold your neck about 30 to 40 degree up and look in
the mirror [try not to laff or barf]. Now mentally drop
a vertical line thru the output jack location, the usual
end pin location, and the "further up" location.

OK now. Consider that the more [bass] body you see
to the right .... no left .... damned mirrors anywayz ....

OK. When more body is hung out beyond the endpin,
then the end pin carries more weight, and that weight
is pulling on the "tail end" of the strap, which is in the
opposite direction as neck dive.

Another way to say this is thus: The more effort thaz
required to support the butt end of the bass, the less
neck dive there will be. [Think about those who put
weights in the control cavity].

It's all about leverage and the length of a lever, and
the fulcrum is the top horn strap pin. The further the
end pin is from the top horn pin [by vertical thru-line]
then the lighter will be the load thaz leveraged onto
the tail end of the strap. Therefore you locate the end
pin CLOSER to the top horn pin [measuring by vertical
thru-line], to INCREASE the load on the tail end of the
strap, if you wanna remedy neck dive.

`

Hi Golem,

I beg to differ on two points:

First point - the fulcrum is not the Neck strap pin. The fulcrum - or point at which the lever is connected (pivot point) is your neck.

Secondly, to alleviate neck dive by relocation of strap buttons you can either move the neck strap button further towards the neck (lengthen the upper horn), or move the body strap button further UP the body of the bass, away from the output jack. This allows more weight past the end of the lever (strap), making it easier for the body to lower.

If you lengthen the strap at the body end by moving the button towards the output jack, you are actually encouraging the body to lift up, because you're moving weight further inside the lever.

The desired effect is somewhat like the outrigger on a small boat - the further out it is, the more resilient the boat is to tipping over. Here we want more of the bass' body to be outside the length of the body side of the strap to encourage downward pressure.
 

golem

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Eberbachl said:
golem said:
trujo777 said:
some people use a wider strap. others change the
location ot the bottom pin and take it furthert up the
body
, others add leads to the inside of the elec
cavity for more weight. ..................
`


Hmmmnnn .... I relocate the end pin further down the
body
, near the output jack.

Hold your neck about 30 to 40 degree up and look in
the mirror [try not to laff or barf]. Now mentally drop
a vertical line thru the output jack location, the usual
end pin location, and the "further up" location.

OK now. Consider that the more [bass] body you see
to the right .... no left .... damned mirrors anywayz ....

OK. When more body is hung out beyond the endpin,
then the end pin carries more weight, and that weight
is pulling on the "tail end" of the strap, which is in the
opposite direction as neck dive.

Another way to say this is thus: The more effort thaz
required to support the butt end of the bass, the less
neck dive there will be. [Think about those who put
weights in the control cavity].

It's all about leverage and the length of a lever, and
the fulcrum is the top horn strap pin. The further the
end pin is from the top horn pin [by vertical thru-line]
then the lighter will be the load thaz leveraged onto
the tail end of the strap. Therefore you locate the end
pin CLOSER to the top horn pin [measuring by vertical
thru-line], to INCREASE the load on the tail end of the
strap, if you wanna remedy neck dive.

`

Hi Golem,

I beg to differ on two points:

First point - the fulcrum is not the Neck strap pin. The fulcrum - or point
at which the lever is connected (pivot point) is your neck.


Secondly, to alleviate neck dive by relocation of strap buttons you can
either move the neck strap button further towards the neck (lengthen
the upper horn), or move the body strap button further UP the body of
the bass, away from the output jack. This allows more weight past
the end of the lever (strap), making it easier for the body to lower.


If you lengthen the strap at the body end by moving the button towards
the output jack, you are actually encouraging the body to lift up,
because you're moving weight further inside the lever.


The desired effect is somewhat like the outrigger on a small boat - the
further out it is, the more resilient the boat is to tipping over. Here we
want more of the bass' body to be outside the length of the body side of
the strap to encourage downward pressure.


`
I've done a bunch of these and I cannot agree at all.

I know ... you're gonna tell me you've done a bunch
as well, and yours works opposite of mine ..... quite
a puzzle if that.

I wish I could find the human neck to be the fulcrum
but it just never works that way. I suspect this is due
to the over one shoulder and around the neck and
under the other shoulder [OK armpit] wrap of the
strap. Also, this is a balance of a "rope and pulley"
device, since the idea is to achieve balance without
relying on the old Gippy Strap to hide an imbalance.

My strap's tail end runs ["slides"] diagonally down
from my left shoulder across my back and is pulling
the bass backward toward me as well as pulling it up
somewhat. OTOH, the front end of the strap runs just
about straight down to the front [top horn] pin. This
is why the left shoulder or the top horn pin are the
fulcrum [same effect , shoulder or horn].

As to moving the tail end of the strap closer to the
top horn, headstock, neck, whatever ... this is the
same as shifting the whole bass to the right. Hook
both ends of your strap to the top horn [use shoe
laces if need be kidz, cuz you CAN try this at home]
and almost any neck diver bass will suddenly be
cured. Any relocation of the end pin that even goes
partially toward this extreme [both on the horn] will
proportionally reduce neck dive. The more the bass
moves right, which is same as end pin moving left,
the less the neck dive.

Movin gthe end pin UP hte curve is moving it to the
right, not the left. Moving it down to the jack area
is moving it to the left. This is with the bass up at
playing angle. The lower pin does not raise the bass.
The strap hasta be many inches longer. No big deal.

The tail of the strap STILL emerges next to my ribs
but heads a little more downward . But from an
overhead view, ignoring the downward path, it still
emerges pretty much straight ahead forward from
side of my torso [ribs] out to the pin. The important
difference in the top views is just how much more
bass body is off to the right of the strap. A lot, and
thaz what fixes the balance, gets more weight
pulling downward on the tail end, which fulcrums
at the top horn pin, and unwights the neck.

BTW, I am skinny. Are you a Summo type ? I don't
know what effect that has. Just wondering what is
the difference between our experience here .......

Y'know, we BOTH AGREE about the outrigger effect,
about having more of the bass fall to right of the
strap. But I observe plainly that a pin at the top
curve puts MORE bass body to the LEFT of that end
of the strap. Equally plainly, I put the pin near the
jack and it runs kinda up the backside of the bass,
marking off a whole big chunk of wood that to the
RIGHT of the strap.

I gotta emphasise, all this geometry is viewed with
the neck up to playing angle, 35 to 40 degrees. I
don't ALWAYS put the pin down the bottom when I
move it leftward. On my Bongo I drilled right into
the face an put it on the front, a coupla inches above
the bridge. Now we don't have the arguement about
a lowdown pin and an upward whatever whatever ...
Well this worked pretty good, but later I hadda put
another hole in my bass, to finally put the end pin
on the lower curve .... which worked even better.

Consider that pin on the front of my bass 2" above
the bridge. It's about the same height [from center
line] as the pins you put on the top curve, and its
faaar to the left of a pin thaz on the top curve. In my
experience, balance is all about east-west , and the
north-south is meaningless. I hang the bass at the
same height and angle after the mods as when the
bass was unmodded, but the weight sitting in my left
hand is minimized, or gone.


`
 
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Honestly Golem, I think we're actually doing the same thing. We want more bass body beyond the strap to give it more effective weight.

Either way - if you go past the curve (up or down) you'll get more weight beyond the lever.

...BTW....no - I'm no sumo type :p I'm 6'2" and 85kgs (around 185lbs or so).

lukebass.jpg


:D
 
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Thumbs do have a neck dive issue because the body is so small and it throws the balance off a bit. I recommend a suede strap which will help the problem but you are still gonna feel the pull on your shirt a bit. Try my family's company www.franklinstrap.com most of these are carried at all Guitar Centers and most bass players really like the 3" wide leather stuff which has a suede backing on it.
 
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Patticus Maximus said:
Thumbs do have a neck dive issue because the body is so small and it throws the balance off a bit.

Thumbs have perfect balance... they are intended to hang horizontal... to be played with - drumroll... your thumb. They do not 'dive' below a horizontal position.

As Golem would say: "Go figger" :D

Strap up a Gibson Flying V guitar, and then you'll experience neck dive!
 

jester

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The NT has 26 frets too, for this purpose.
 
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Well, I'm not a slapper, and don't intend to become one. I just liked the body style of the Thumb, but visual appeal comes in way after comfort.

I really paid attention to how I play my Jazz and I keep the neck pointed upwards, I tried it horizontally and it doesn't work with me at all.

I wish I liked the Corvette shape more. I need to start hunting a Streamer and a Fortress and see which one I like best.
 
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on the Fortress... do not let the upper horn discourage you. it balances the bass incredibly well. :wink: Got one which I am not giving up any time soon. :wink:
 
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The upper horn is meaty enough to look cool. It's that little scrawny one the Corvettes have that throws me off.

I just dreamed up the Thumb in my signature and it looks really, really nice like that. Be sad to have to change it up.
 
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whyachi said:
The upper horn is meaty enough to look cool. It's that little scrawny one the Corvettes have that throws me off.
Wow...
 
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Am I the only human who thinks neck dive issues are for babies? How much upward pressure does it take to keep the neck at the angle you like? I'm guessing insignificantly more than it takes to hold your forearm horizontal.

And no concerns with actually having to prevent the neck moving backwards when you fret it? My God, you actually have to support the neck? Violin players support the whole weight of their instrument in their hand (and before anyone pisses and moans-violins don't have friggin straps).

Go buy a Steinberger.
 
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saxonbass said:
I have a "grippy" strap and it works for me. [/color]I think the issue is not the grippiness of the strap, but the looseness of the shirt. Try wearing a tight-fitting lycra leotard and all your problems will be solved. If you got a "grippy" leotard you could have whatever strap you wanted.

+1. My Thumb has tons of neckdive. I solved it with a wide grippy strap. I'm not going to put on any tight-fitting lycra leotard though.
 
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