Moving Strap Buttons.

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You could go further Greg - you could put it behind the 5th. After all, you don't need to play higher up the neck than that - all the notes of the scale are there on the first 4 frets, aren't they! :D:D

They are on my bass at least!
& nuffin else matters,eh.
;)
 
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I put the answer to this in the second-to-last paragraph of my post:


It might not make a big difference, but the difference it makes is to reduce neck-dive, not to make it worse.

Mart, sorry I missed that part of your post the first time around. And thanks for pointing back to that info.

I do not have a thumb so I cannot experiment with the theory you provided, regarding the C.G. But with the various Streamers I have/had, the ones with the end-pin closer to the jack always wanted to hang more horizontally.

I think the discrepancy between your theory and my experience lies in the orientation of the Thumb on your diagram. Perhaps if you start with a more horizontal Thumb on your diagram (as that's how it likes to hang neutrally to begin with) your result will be closer to my experience.
 
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....
I think the discrepancy between your theory and my experience lies in the orientation of the Thumb on your diagram. Perhaps if you start with a more horizontal Thumb on your diagram (as that's how it likes to hang neutrally to begin with) your result will be closer to my experience.

When I was reading through the old thread I got stuck in exactly this point: if you hold the bass horizontally then it looks better to move the pin upwards, whereas if you hold the bass at an angle it looks better to move it down. Which way is the right way? Well, my rationale for picturing the bass at an angle is this:

We want the bass at an angle. What I want to establish is how happy the bass is to stay at that angle. So that means picturing the bass at the desired angle, and then working out what forces are trying to change the angle and how strong they are. What my pictures seem to show is that if you want your bass at that 45 degree angle, then moving the strap pin up will make the bass less happy to stay at that angle.

When the bass is horizontal, you're right - a higher strap button will reduce the force pushing the neck down. So if you start with your bass at an angle then, when you let it go and it reaches the horizontal, then there won't be so much force to keep pushing the head down. However, with that higher strap button, when your bass is at the starting angle, there will be more force pushing it down towards the horizontal. So the higher button means more force pushing the bass away from the 45 degree angle, but less pushing it below the horizontal. A lower button means less force pushing the bass away from the 45 degree angle, but more force when the bass reaches the horizontal. If we want to keep the bass at equilibrium at 45 degrees, then we want to minimize the forces that apply in that position. Sorry if this has become too technical, but I don't understand it well enough to explain it in simpler terms. (I very much believe Richard Feynman when he says if you really understand something you should be able to explain it to anyone, and if you can't explain it to anyone, then you don't fully understand it!)

I don't know what to make of your Streamers. The top horn being much closer to the head (than on a Thumb) will make a difference, and of course different basses can have different weights/weight distributions. And I have to say the neck-dive on my Thumb is actually very small - at any angle it stays in place very well thanks to the weight of the bass pulling the strap down, giving a lot of friction - this makes it very hard to assess the quantity of neck-dive accurately without resorting to some carefully weighing and calculating. Yes, I'm afraid, this is me tentatively saying I don't believe you :-D Seriously though, I can't really understand why your streamers would be like that. Hmmm, actually, I need to do some experiments to understand this properly. Er, I know: can you send them over to me and I'll do some comprehensive tests? They shouldn't take more than about 6 months per bass. Can we start with the fretless SS2? ;-D
 
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I think there's alot of sense in what Martin's saying.
Consider a well balanced bass,a Corvette for example.It's long top horn makes for a good balance.Most people believe the top horn needs to extend to at least the 12th fret,for it to have a good balance.But,if the neck's weight is too great,it will want to dive towards the floor,regardless of where the top horn extends to.
That's why I believe it takes more than simply a long top horn,for a bass to balance well(at 45 degrees).
When I had a Thumb,I could get it to stay at around 45 degrees,without having to actually hold the neck in place.But when I let go of the neck,& jiggled about,the neck went towards the floor.Some will say this is positive proof of neck dive,but since when did anyone play the bass with just their right hand?Simply achoring my right thumb on a pickup was enough to keep the bass at that angle.I dont understand some people's(usually on talkbass)arguments about neck dive.It seems to me,there's no real hard & fast rules when it comes to balance,coz we're all different & have different wants & needs.& right now,I think I need to stfu.:lol:
 
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i don't know if it makes sense but to me my thumb bo tends to feel more neck heavy then my nt.it took a little getting used to but i don't have a real problem with them.i like the bass so much that it doesn't bother me.
 
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i don't know if it makes sense but to me my thumb bo tends to feel more neck heavy then my nt.it took a little getting used to but i don't have a real problem with them.i like the bass so much that it doesn't bother me.

That's quite possible. I don't have a BO to check, but the change in body-wood (ovangkol instead of bubinga) will mean that the centre of gravity is in a slightly different position, which will slightly change the balance.

It's all "slight" because these are not big effects we're talking about. Like Greg, my Thumb stays in place unless I move around a lot while not supporting the neck. So there's neck-dive, but only a very small amount, so it's usually kept in check by the friction on the strap, and doesn't need much support from my fretting hand. (Actually, do you have a "fretting" hand if you play fretless? :-D)

And of course, Greg is also right in saying we're all different and want our basses to balance in different ways. I've just picked one balance position to make the discussion simpler. If you want to work out exactly how it applies to you, then picture your bass at exactly the angle you want, and take it from there.
 
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Would this work for a Thumb?

Here's the problem: My 12 string guitar is "head heavy" when on a strap. It's ok for seated playing, but it's really a job to keep it from tipping while standing.
The solution: A strap with a weighted end for the bottom of the guitar. It shouldn't need to be a very heavy weight, probably just a few ounces is all that would be necessary. The weight would be adjustable, adding or subtracting ounces until you find the right balance.

— Noexit, Jul 27 2006
 
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i don't know if it makes sense but to me my thumb bo tends to feel more neck heavy then my nt.it took a little getting used to but i don't have a real problem with them.i like the bass so much that it doesn't bother me.


Makes perfect sense,coz the BO has a slightly different shape to the NT,& like Martin mentioned,different wood as well as a neck pocket,which positions the neck in a different position.
 
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Would this work for a Thumb?

Here's the problem: My 12 string guitar is "head heavy" when on a strap. It's ok for seated playing, but it's really a job to keep it from tipping while standing.
The solution: A strap with a weighted end for the bottom of the guitar. It shouldn't need to be a very heavy weight, probably just a few ounces is all that would be necessary. The weight would be adjustable, adding or subtracting ounces until you find the right balance.

— Noexit, Jul 27 2006

That would work, but I think most of us Thumb users would agree that we don't want any more weight hanging off our straps, thank you very much :-D

Btw, what sort of 12-string is it? Both my Martin and my Rick balance wonderfully.
 
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Did anyone think to reduce the headstock weight by replacing the stock tuners with hipshot ultralites?
On thuesday I will receive my thumb bo 5 fretless. The tuners replacement will be my first issue. If it is not going to effect much I will probably drill a new hole.
The problem is that I have not decided yet weather it must be done lower or higher than the existing hole...
 
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Did anyone think to reduce the headstock weight by replacing the stock tuners with hipshot ultralites?
On thuesday I will receive my thumb bo 5 fretless. The tuners replacement will be my first issue. If it is not going to effect much I will probably drill a new hole.
The problem is that I have not decided yet weather it must be done lower or higher than the existing hole...

Er, yes, quite a few people have tried ultralites:
http://forum.warwick.de/10-warwick-basses/12601-hipshot-ultralight-tuners-thumb-bo-5-worth.html

My impression is that changing the tuning pegs won't achieve much, and drilling a new hole won't achieve much. It seems to me that the only ways to make a real difference are to put weight on the bottom end, or use Florin's shoelace trick, or extend the top-horn somehow. None are ideal, but at least they do work. But try your new bass as it is first - you may find it's ok.
 

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This thread has become relevant to someone so I dug it up today.
 
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Hello,

Shifting the strap anchor point an inch or 2 isn't going to make any discernable difference, in most cases.

To effectively ballance it to how you want it to sit;

First you need to find the centroid. The easiest way is with 3m of 10kg fishing line and a heavy sinker. Tie the sinker to one end. the other tie to a door handle of an open door. flick the line over the door, and tie to your front strap anchor point so the guitar is half way up the door. A clover hitch is usually enough to hold it nicely. Slowly release your guitar, and it will swing so the rest of the fishing line (with sinker attached) will pass through the centroid. For the purposes of this exercise, the line will pass (close enough to) through the centroid. Grab your phone or camera and take a picture where the body takes up the entire picture. Now do the same except this time tie the line round the rear strap anchor point.
By comparing the 2 pictures you can see the approximate location of the centroid. This is where the fishing line would cross if the pictures were superimposed upon each other.

The next problem is adjusting the hang.....
If I anchored the rear strap to the thumb itself (as this is the instrument in the pictures) and ran the strap along the under side of the body and then up the back to where present rear strap mount is, and then continued as per usual, there would be absolutely no change in the ballance of the guitar. This is because the force being aplied to each end of the strap is governed by the distance from the centroid to the point that the strap vertically leaves the body. This is because gravity is a verticle force.
Therefore to truly adjust the ballance, you need to bring the rear mount around the top of the body towards the front by a substatial distance. Moving it 50mm (2 inches) towards the front requires it to travel a long way towards the top and front. And unless you go that far, I doubt that it will make much difference to the neck dive effect. The neck dive effect comes about because the centroid is substantially closer to the front strap anchor point than the rear, which destabalises the ballance. The front strap will have much more load on it than the rear strap. The guitar will continue to rotate until the load on each strap is equal, which is when the neck is pointing well and truly down.
Florin's solution of using a shoe lace, is a good one. That is because it will hold the rear end of the strap at a position where the tensions are closer to being equal, and no matter which way you tilt the neck it will create a self correcting force on the straps which will bring it back to where you want it. Unfortunately it's not very neat or professional looking. I actually have a shoe lace tied around the horn of my corvette to encourage it to ballance better, as it keeps the shoe lace close to the guitar. (I don't think I should hold it up, if I don't absolutely have to.) This all works because the shoe lace is attached to the guitar and, through tension when under load, shifts the vertical point that the rear strap leaves the guitar. Bring it forward.

I hope this adds some useful information to the explanation already given.


Cheers,

Phill.
 

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I routinely move the rear button about 2 inches closer to the neck. I
do not go around the top. I go downward, around the bottom, as it's
a much shorter route and much more secure against the strap pulling
off the button ... actually MORE secure than the usual factory location.
Also, this allows my forearm to govern the body/FB angle against my
body, and when sitting down it keeps the body from creeping away
from me across my lap/leg.

I simply put the button as far around bottom as it will go but without
drilling into the control cavity. How far this moves the button's vertical
location, as determined by a vertical line passing thru it [earthward],
is a variable ... it depends upon the neck angle [hang angle], which is
whatever one desires IF an instrument is hanging in good balance. It's
a variable, but generally worth about 2 inches at typical hang angles
that most players use [30 degr, +/-].

I usually add a short spacer to the top-horn strap button screw. The
combination of that short spacer, plus the forward relocation of the
rear button, tends to result in wonderful hang balance.
 
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