Intermediate Music Theory

[BassRunner911]

Intermediate Music Theory

This thread is for you bassists who know the basics, but want to know what scale is used over more complex chord symbols. First, I’ll break them down into 5 basic categories:
1. Major (Ionian)
2. Dominant 7th (Mixolydian)
3. Minor (Dorian)
4. Half-Diminished (Lydian)
5. Diminished (8 tone scale)

I’ll give you an example Chord symbol, then the scale used, then the formula in Whole-step/Half-step form, then numerical form.

Major:
Ex. Cmaj = Major Scale, W-W-H-W-W-W-H, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1
Ex. Cmaj+4 = Lydian (Major w/ #4), W-W-W-H-W-W-H, 1-2-3-#4-5-6-7-1
Ex. Cmaj b6 = Harmonic Major, W-W-H-W-H-m3-H, 1-2-3-4-5-b6-7-1
Ex. Cmaj+5+4 = Lydian Augmented, W-W-W-W-H-W-H, 1-2-3-#4-#5-6-7-1
*Augmented, Blues, and Major Pentatonic work too, but that’s for another day

Dominant 7th:
Ex. C7 = Dominant 7th (Mixolydian), W-W-H-W-W-H-W, 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7-1
Ex. C7 = Blues Scale, m3-W-H-H-m3-W, 1-b3-4-#4/b5-5-b7-1
Ex. C7+4 = Lydian Dominant, W-W-W-H-W-H-W, 1-2-3-#4-5-6-b7-1
Ex. C7b6 = Hindu Scale, W-W-H-W-H-W-W, 1-2-3-4-5-b6-b7-1
Ex. C7+ = Whole Tone Scale (6 tone), W-W-W-W-W-W, 1-2-3-#4-#5-b6-b7-1
*The 7alt Scales will be covered in a more advanced thread

Minor:
Ex. Cmin = Minor (Dorian), W-H-W-W-W-H-W, 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7-1
Ex. Cmin = Blues Scale, m3-W-H-H-m3-W, 1-b3-4-#4/b5-5-b7-1
Ex. Cmin/maj7 = Ascending Melodic, W-H-W-W-W-W-H, 1-2-b3-4-5-6-7-1 (Also called Jazz Minor...most comonly used in Jazz)
Ex. Cmin b6 = Pure/Natural Minor (Aeolian), W-H-W-W-H-W-W, 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-1
*Major Phrygian, Harmonic, Diminished, etc. is for another thread

*Half-Diminished, Diminished, and Sus are for another day

Remember that you can PM me with any questions.

 

[Florin]

Thanks man,

I made your topics sticky

I really apreciate your work!

 

[Grgzilla]

+1.
Very much appreciated Joey.

 

[BassRunner911]

No problem. I have much more where that came from too, plus I have the entire Aebersold series recordings and pdf. files on my hard drive, so I can post files to play over, for example Bb Mixolydian, or some standards like Autumn Leaves to work on the circle. It's a good way to practice ear training while visiting the Warwick forum.

 

[nizzrooster]

Thanks Joey. This little chart is very helpful. I printed it out and use it all the time....Thanks again.

 

[paperbag1213]

i thought that aolian was minor not dorian

 

[BassRunner911]

They are both minor. I'll try to explain as best I can:

Aeolian is the mode. Natural Minor is the scale. So this minor is 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-1
It's called minor because the 3 is lowered. Most people learn this mode as A Aeolian. (A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A)

As for Dorian, it is still minor, but the formula is different.
this minor is 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7-1
It's minor, again because the 3rd is lowered. Most people learn it as D Dorian (D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D)

So think that Aeolian is a mode, but the same formula as Natural Minor (sometimes referred to as pure minor)

Dorian is a mode, but considered minor because it has the lowered 3rd...that's what minor means

There are many many many different types of minor, but every type has a different formula.

ex. Natural minor, harmonic minor, ascending/descending melodic minor, minor pentatonic, etc.

Hope that helps

 

[RIP]

Since I don't know anything about theory, I thought I'd bring this thread back to life

Let me start with this video I seen with Victor explaining a couple thing's


Does anyone have any comments that you can add to this........I'm all ears

 

[Bassist4Eris]

Does anyone have any comments that you can add to this........I'm all ears

I love Victor, but that video wasn't his most coherent statement, IMHO.

Practicing in all thirty keys? First of all, the idea that one can count major and minor as separate keys, but not count Dorian (or any other modes or scales) is outdated. It was a convention from the days of Bach and Vivaldi, and it's become incompatible with the way actual modern music gets written and played. Natural minor is, in a very real sense, simply another name for the Aeolian mode (which, incidentally, gets a lot of competition from Dorian for popularity).

It would be interesting to know what key Victor would say Miles Davis' "So What" is in. He says Dorian is a mode, not a key. But I say that song is in D Dorian. Why? Because that tells you a lot more about the song than saying it's in D minor, or A minor, or C major. The key center is clearly D. The other notes in the melody are clearly Dorian. It's in D Dorian.

But leaving all that aside, if you learn a major-key song, are you really going to practice it in minor too? No you're not. No one does that unless they're trying to make a viral video out of a lame idea.

In theory (pun definitely intended) there are 15 major keys, in terms of musical notation. In other words, if you wanted to put a seven-flat key signature on a piece of sheet music, you could do it, and insist that the tune is in C flat. But it would be a lot easier to read if you just put five sharps on it and called it B. Furthermore, what is the practical difference between practicing something in B versus practicing it in C flat?

Therefore, I say there are 12 possible key centers, not 15. This is because there are only 12 notes. Multiple ways to notate something does not mean that actual multiple key centers exist. The keys of F# and Gb are exactly the same thing in the purely aural world of music. This other stuff is purely academic, and obfuscates things, which is ironic considering the video's title.

At the end of the video (5:32), he seems to imply that they've just boiled down all of music theory into a five-minute interview, where most of what he did was talk about things more relevant to notation. Don't get me wrong, I found some of this stuff pretty interesting, and quite handy too. But it's hardly even the surface of music theory.

I've heard Victor say that he doesn't know a lot of theory. I think players on Vic's level have such huge ears that theory becomes unnecessary. They just hear it and play it. It's us regular folks who could use a little helping hand figuring out what notes to play when your keyboard player says "hey, instead of that G7, let's throw in a C#7b5 instead".

 

[Foal30]

Theory can be the notation of already performed/ recorded music.

A written explanation of an 'art'.

Any musician will improve their communication skills by have a firm grasp of musical theory.

 

[Foal30]

"No one does that unless their trying to make a viral video of a lame idea"

Fucking Lol

 

[Foal30]

Is tri-tone substitution an unbearable mental burden?

I'd argue any person could learn this with an absolute minimum of stress with only a half decent teacher and 4-6 hours of application.

 

[DiMarco]

I never know what it is I am playing, since I just copy what I heard.
Sometimes I apply what I have learned somewhere else in my own work, but still I think in shapes on the neck rather then in any mumbo jumbo like scales, modes, tri-tones, progressions or whatever.

Call me stubborn if you want, I know I am just too damn stupid to learn any music theory.
I tried and failed. Now I just focus on sounding good on my instrument.

Here's my writeup from some years ago, which is an attempt to start to understand what's what.
I never ever used or applied any of it since I am clearly too lazy to care, and stupid.

 

[Bassist4Eris]

Call me stubborn if you want, I know I am just too damn stupid to learn any music theory.

Well, as long as we were talking about Victor Wooten, here's an interesting observation that he once made. He started by talking about a whole bunch of different elements of music. The first was pitch. The rest included things like rhythm, timbre, articulation, phrasing, etc. He then pointed out that out of the whole list, pitch was the only thing that theory can help you with. His point was that many players treat theory with an exaggerated importance.

I like theory, and I like explaining it to those who want to know more about it. But ultimately, I agree with Victor: it's not really the be-all-end-all of musicianship. Lots of great musicians don't know one bit of theory.

 

[michele]

i thought that aolian was minor not dorian

Dorian is the 2nd of the 7 major modes.
If you take your basic C major scale (C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C) that's the I mode and it's called Ionian.
Then you could build the 7 modes playing the same notes in order but starting from each one of those notes.
So you'll have:

II mode (Dorian): D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D
III mode (Phrygian): E,F, G, A, B, C, D, E
IV mode (Lydian): F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F
V mode (Mixolydian): G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G
VI mode (Aeolian): A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A
VII mode (Locrian): B, C, D,E, F, G, A, B

Modes II, III, VI and VII are all minor because the interval between the root and the third is a minor third (3 semitones)
Each one has its flavor and its role in western harmony.
Dorian mode (II) is widely used over minor 7 chords (which are 4 voice chords formed by root, minor third, perfect fifth, minor seventh) because none of its notes clashes with any of the notes that form said chord.
Also it is THE mode to be played on the starting chord of the most famous, used and abused progression of music history which is the II-V-I major

 

[michele]

I like theory too.. and everyone who wants to dig deep into music has to study music theory.
Music is a language and every language has its form, its structure and its rules.
Even if your goal is merely breaking rules, you better know them first.

 

[Foal30]

Well, as long as we were talking about Victor Wooten, here's an interesting observation that he once made. He started by talking about a whole bunch of different elements of music. The first was pitch. The rest included things like rhythm, timbre, articulation, phrasing, etc. He then pointed out that out of the whole list, pitch was the only thing that theory can help you with. His point was that many players treat theory with an exaggerated importance.

I like theory, and I like explaining it to those who want to know more about it. But ultimately, I agree with Victor: it's not really the be-all-end-all of musicianship. Lots of great musicians don't know one bit of theory.

I would totally state a grounding in Musical Theory will help 95% of players develop rhythmic and articulation 'chops'.

I have played with hundreds of musicians. I have never, ever, bloody well ever heard a single one say "I wish I hadn't of learnt theory"

This (for me at least) is a pretty clear indication of what the overwhelming majority of us can learn and expand with.

 

[DiMarco]

Theory is the foundation you build your grooves on. I know it is important if I want to progress and feel more comfortable when playing with new people.

 

[michele]

I love Victor, but that video wasn't his most coherent statement, IMHO.

Practicing in all thirty keys? First of all, the idea that one can count major and minor as separate keys, but not count Dorian (or any other modes or scales) is outdated. It was a convention from the days of Bach and Vivaldi, and it's become incompatible with the way actual modern music gets written and played. Natural minor is, in a very real sense, simply another name for the Aeolian mode (which, incidentally, gets a lot of competition from Dorian for popularity).

It would be interesting to know what key Victor would say Miles Davis' "So What" is in. He says Dorian is a mode, not a key. But I say that song is in D Dorian. Why? Because that tells you a lot more about the song than saying it's in D minor, or A minor, or C major. The key center is clearly D. The other notes in the melody are clearly Dorian. It's in D Dorian.

But leaving all that aside, if you learn a major-key song, are you really going to practice it in minor too? No you're not. No one does that unless they're trying to make a viral video out of a lame idea.

In theory (pun definitely intended) there are 15 major keys, in terms of musical notation. In other words, if you wanted to put a seven-flat key signature on a piece of sheet music, you could do it, and insist that the tune is in C flat. But it would be a lot easier to read if you just put five sharps on it and called it B. Furthermore, what is the practical difference between practicing something in B versus practicing it in C flat?

Therefore, I say there are 12 possible key centers, not 15. This is because there are only 12 notes. Multiple ways to notate something does not mean that actual multiple key centers exist. The keys of F# and Gb are exactly the same thing in the purely aural world of music. This other stuff is purely academic, and obfuscates things, which is ironic considering the video's title.

At the end of the video (5:32), he seems to imply that they've just boiled down all of music theory into a five-minute interview, where most of what he did was talk about things more relevant to notation. Don't get me wrong, I found some of this stuff pretty interesting, and quite handy too. But it's hardly even the surface of music theory.

I've heard Victor say that he doesn't know a lot of theory. I think players on Vic's level have such huge ears that theory becomes unnecessary. They just hear it and play it. It's us regular folks who could use a little helping hand figuring out what notes to play when your keyboard player says "hey, instead of that G7, let's throw in a C#7b5 instead".

This post is brilliant. It totally reflects my opinions/knowledge on the subject and I couldn't have put it into words better than this.
I would only add that, although I respect Wooten and Wellington as musicians, the concept of teaching people that "there are 30 keys" although technically "not-wrong" is a potential damage to the zillion of (aspiring) bassists which admire those musicians and take every word that comes from their mouth as gold. What I really can't stand is that this kind of information (?) is given with that smile on the face that seems to suggest "..ehhh kid, open your ears because I'm going to tell you The Truth".
Some people like to impress. Some people teach because the simple fact to pass their knowledge to others is a reward to them. Search for those..